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[173.79.19.72]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u13-20020a05620a430d00b006fbdeecad51sm6945759qko.48.2022.12.12.16.50.53 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 12 Dec 2022 16:50:53 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1CF054EC-9A0C-4762-9331-A658789FFF87" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.1\)) Subject: Re: [WO-DEV] duplication in frameworks: ERExtensions, javaeoaccess From: Aaron Rosenzweig In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 19:50:53 -0500 Cc: Ramsey Gurley Message-Id: <66525226-ADAF-4925-AF0C-7A6973019FAC@chatnbike.com> References: To: WebObjects & WOnder Development X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.1) --Apple-Mail=_1CF054EC-9A0C-4762-9331-A658789FFF87 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Ramsey and thank you! That=E2=80=99s some good information. Thanks = for taking the time to try that. You make it sound easy but I was coming = up empty :-)=20 So basically you said =E2=80=9Cforget JavaXML=E2=80=9D framework and = completely avoided it. Then you deleted some source files that dealt = with Axis which came from JavaXML because=E2=80=A6 well=E2=80=A6 it was = a neat concept back in the day but we aren=E2=80=99t really using it. I = assume you added the javax.servlet and xerces because they were needed = and used to be accessed from JavaXML. Ok=E2=80=A6 I get the idea. = Creative :-) Not really that straightforward but makes sense after you = figured it out and shared with us.=20 I think maybe I should move our build to Maven and start there first and = then maybe modernize our apps as best as I can while getting rid of = certain dependencies like JavaXML.framework like you had done. In other = words=E2=80=A6 I should probably do Maven first and then Java 17 second. = I=E2=80=99ll maybe compile the WOnder files in java 1.8 compliance mode = (at least for now).=20 Is this the best primer on getting Maven working in Eclipse? https://wiki.wocommunity.org/display/WOL/Quick+Start = It's got a note from Ray Kiddy on 2022 06-24 that at least part of it = doesn=E2=80=99t work.=20 It also talks about three ways=E2=80=A6 mvn eclipse:eclipse, m2eclipse, = and q4e=E2=80=A6. which of the three is best? perhaps m2eclipse?=20 Thank you, =E2=80=94 Aaron > On Dec 11, 2022, at 11:19 PM, Ramsey Gurley = wrote: >=20 > I'm not totally sure, because I haven't tried to migrate wonder to 17 = yet, but I think it's possible. With regards to compiling ERExtensions = with Java 17, I did that, saw your error, and corrected it on = ERExtensions:=20 >=20 > I updated the /pom.xml file to source/target 17 instead of 1.8. >=20 > I added an exclusion to JavaWebObjects in the same file, excluding = com.webobjects/JavaXML. >=20 > I deleted the WOWebServicePatch.java, because I don't want to drag in = Apache Axis with all its vulns for something nobody uses anyway. I = removed the reference to it in ERXApplication. >=20 > In ERExtensions/pom.xml, I added dependencies for = javax.servlet/servlet-api/2.5 and xerces/xerces/2.4.0. I would probably = do this in the parent IRL and manage the dependencies there, but for = this quick test, that's what I did. >=20 > And now ERExtensions compiles without error in eclipse. There are a = few other projects that have compile errors and need some repair for a = full Java 17 patch to be attained. Some are really old and I don't know = if anyone even cares about them anymore. >=20 > From: WebObjects & WOnder Development > on behalf of Aaron Rosenzweig = > > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2022 11:47 AM > To: WebObjects & WOnder Development > > Subject: [WO-DEV] Re: duplication in frameworks: ERExtensions, = javaeoaccess > =20 > Thanks Ramsey but now I=E2=80=99m more confused.=20 >=20 > Can we compile for Java 17 compliance or not? Before it sounded like = you said it wasn=E2=80=99t possible but now it sounds like you are = saying it is possible.=20 >=20 > I tried to take one WOnder project, ERExtensions, and make it compile = for java 17 but I couldn=E2=80=99t get it to work in Eclipse. Files like = ERXApplication.java complain: The package org.w3c.dom is accessible from = more than one module: , java.xml >=20 > I=E2=80=99m not adding a module-info.java or trying to force it in any = way to have extra jigsaw JMPS bells and whistles. If I make it compile = for java 1.8 (like the .project file does in WOnder) then it=E2=80=99s = happy. Change it to java 17 compliance and it fails.=20 >=20 > In our own app, where we include things like = =E2=80=9Ccom.webobjects.eoaccess.EOAttribute=E2=80=9D I get: The package = com.webobjects.eoaccess is accessible from more than one module: = ERExtensions, javaeoaccess >=20 > I only tried creating a module-info.java to see if that could buy us = anything but I don=E2=80=99t think it can.=20 >=20 > I=E2=80=99m looking at your docker project right now. You mentioned it = earlier but I didn=E2=80=99t understand and still don=E2=80=99t really. = I=E2=80=99m not wanting to use docker right now=E2=80=A6 but maybe your = point is that this is a simple WO app using Java 17 that happens to be = in docker. I=E2=80=99m looking around the project in GitHub that you = made and see that it is pretty simple, like a proof of concept. Thank = you. Is it possible that it=E2=80=99s so simple that there aren=E2=80=99t = any conflicts with duplicate package definitions in different jars? Have = you been able to do this with an large/real project?=20 >=20 > If Java 17 compliance is possible, what am I missing to be able to do = it in Eclipse?=20 >=20 >> On Dec 11, 2022, at 9:14 PM, Ramsey Gurley = > = wrote: >>=20 >> Did you have a chance to look at >>=20 >> https://github.com/nullterminated/wodocker = >>=20 >>=20 >> It uses Java 17, and it works >>=20 >> https://github.com/nullterminated/wodocker/blob/master/pom.xml#L77 = >>=20 >> I think the main confusion is thinking we have to use jigsaw = post-java 8, but that's not a requirement. There's no module-info.java = in that project, but it still works like WO always did. >>=20 >> Wonder can probably be updated similarly, but I see no need to cut = off anyone still using 8 just so one of the three patches received a = year can use a switch expression or something like that :) Maybe when = JEP 182 kicks in and Java 8 can no longer compile with latest JDK, then = there is more reason to update it. That said, I'm also not against = updating to 17 or whatever the latest LTS happens to be if everyone = loves that idea. >> From: WebObjects & WOnder Development > on behalf of Aaron Rosenzweig = > >> Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2022 10:59 PM >> To: WebObjects & WOnder Development > >> Subject: [WO-DEV] Re: duplication in frameworks: ERExtensions, = javaeoaccess >> =20 >> Thanks Ramsey,=20 >>=20 >> To be clear, your situation is that you develop and deploy on a Java = 17 VM but you compile for Java 8 (1.8). This affords you a modern VM = with any of the latest security and timestamp updates. It also affords = you the use of Apple WebObjects and WOnder with little effort (besides = the ALL-UNNAMED tweak).=20 >>=20 >> Did I get that correct (at least roughly?)=20 >>=20 >> I want to be clear about it because it=E2=80=99s easy for someone to = say or hear =E2=80=9CThey are on Java 17=E2=80=9D and not fully = interpret what it means. I think all of us, if we are =E2=80=9Con Java = 17=E2=80=9D are running in 1.8 compliance mode.=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Dec 9, 2022, at 6:28 PM, Ramsey Gurley = > = wrote: >>>=20 >>> >If we are targeting Java 17 compliance >>>=20 >>> I don't really see any need for WOnder to go java 17 in source. = There's not a lot of active development happening in Wonder, so it would = be unnecessary work to do that and limit backward compatibility with = those still using 8. I just care that it continues to build without = errors using the latest java. That's what origin/master should do now. >>>=20 >>> As you pointed out, without access to source, it is getting harder = and harder to drag WebObjects into the future. >>>=20 >>> From: WebObjects & WOnder Development = > = on behalf of Aaron Rosenzweig > >>> Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2022 6:37 AM >>> To: WebObjects & WOnder Development > >>> Subject: [WO-DEV] duplication in frameworks: ERExtensions, = javaeoaccess >>> =20 >>> [You don't often get email from aaron@chatnbike.com = . Learn why this is important = athttps://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification = ] >>>=20 >>> The package com.webobjects.eoaccess is defined in both: = ERExtensions, javaeoaccess >>>=20 >>> javaeoaccess is a framework from NeXT/Apple. >>>=20 >>> I believe ERExtensions recreated a distinctly apple package name so = that we could replace Apple's _EOExpressionArray with a new one from = Wonder. >>>=20 >>> This worked because if we load ERExtensions before = JavaEOAccess.framework=E2=80=A6 in the class path, the first one wins. = Old JVMs would happily take the first. While this is risky, it worked as = long as we were careful (and sort of knew what Apple was doing). We did = things like this because we didn=E2=80=99t own JavaEOAccess and = basically =E2=80=9Cpatched it=E2=80=9D because we wanted an improvement = that Apple didn=E2=80=99t provide. We could do better than Apple and = this is how we did it, while letting the rest of the Apple plumbing = continue working with particular object replacements. >>>=20 >>> This cannot work past Java 1.8 can it? If we are targeting Java 17 = compliance, we are then using JPMS (Java Package Module System) aka = =E2=80=9CJava Modules=E2=80=9D which won=E2=80=99t accept this type of = patch. >>>=20 >>> In my application project, I created a module-info.java and placed = these lines in it: >>>=20 >>> requires ERExtensions; >>> requires javaeoaccess; >>>=20 >>> We need both lines right? But this results in the the following = unsurprising error: >>> The package com.webobjects.eoaccess is accessible from more than one = module: ERExtensions, javaeoaccess >>>=20 >>> What am I missing? Are we stuck? Without being able to update the = Apple jars directly, the old hacks cannot work in the new word of Java = Modules. We=E2=80=99ve done this in many places including NSArray. Are = we stuck living in Java 1.8 compliance with Java 17? >>> ############################################################# >>> This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to >>> the mailing list >. >>> To unsubscribe, E-mail to: > >>> To switch to the DIGEST mode, E-mail to = > >>> To switch to the INDEX mode, E-mail to = > >>> Send administrative queries to = > >>>=20 >>> Confidentiality Notice: This email, including all attachments and = replies thereto, are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy = Act, 18 U.S.C. Sections 2510-2521 and are legally privileged. This = information is confidential, and intended only for the use of the = individuals or entities named above. If you are not the intended = recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, = distribution or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of = this transmitted information is strictly prohibited. Please notify us if = you have received this transmission in error. Thank you. >>=20 >> Confidentiality Notice: This email, including all attachments and = replies thereto, are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy = Act, 18 U.S.C. Sections 2510-2521 and are legally privileged. This = information is confidential, and intended only for the use of the = individuals or entities named above. If you are not the intended = recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, = distribution or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of = this transmitted information is strictly prohibited. Please notify us if = you have received this transmission in error. Thank you. >=20 > Confidentiality Notice: This email, including all attachments and = replies thereto, are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy = Act, 18 U.S.C. Sections 2510-2521 and are legally privileged. This = information is confidential, and intended only for the use of the = individuals or entities named above. If you are not the intended = recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, = distribution or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of = this transmitted information is strictly prohibited. Please notify us if = you have received this transmission in error. Thank you. --Apple-Mail=_1CF054EC-9A0C-4762-9331-A658789FFF87 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Ramsey and thank you! That=E2=80=99s some good information. Thanks for = taking the time to try that. You make it sound easy but I was coming up = empty :-) 

So = basically you said =E2=80=9Cforget JavaXML=E2=80=9D framework and = completely avoided it. Then you deleted some source files that dealt = with Axis which came from JavaXML because=E2=80=A6 well=E2=80=A6 it was = a neat concept back in the day but we aren=E2=80=99t really using it. I = assume you added the javax.servlet and xerces because they were needed = and used to be accessed from JavaXML. Ok=E2=80=A6 I get the idea. = Creative :-) Not really that straightforward but makes sense after you = figured it out and shared with us. 

I think maybe I should move our build = to Maven and start there first and then maybe modernize our apps as best = as I can while getting rid of certain dependencies like = JavaXML.framework like you had done. In other words=E2=80=A6 I should = probably do Maven first and then Java 17 second. I=E2=80=99ll maybe = compile the WOnder files in java 1.8 compliance mode (at least for = now). 

Is = this the best primer on getting Maven working in Eclipse?
https://wiki.wocommunity.org/display/WOL/Quick+Start
<= div class=3D"">
It's got a note from = Ray Kiddy on 2022 06-24 that at least part of it doesn=E2=80=99t = work. 

It = also talks about three ways=E2=80=A6 mvn eclipse:eclipse, m2eclipse, and = q4e=E2=80=A6. which of the three is best? perhaps = m2eclipse? 

Thank you,
=E2=80=94 Aaron

On Dec 11, 2022, at 11:19 PM, Ramsey Gurley <Ramsey.Gurley@practicemojo.com> wrote:

I'm not totally = sure, because I haven't tried to migrate wonder to 17 yet, but I think = it's possible. With regards to compiling ERExtensions with Java 17, I = did that, saw your error, and corrected it on = ERExtensions: 

I updated the /pom.xml file to = source/target 17 instead of 1.8.

I added an exclusion to = JavaWebObjects in the same file, excluding = com.webobjects/JavaXML.

I deleted the WOWebServicePatch.java, because I don't = want to drag in Apache Axis with all its vulns for something nobody uses = anyway. I removed the reference to it in = ERXApplication.

In ERExtensions/pom.xml, I added dependencies for = javax.servlet/servlet-api/2.5 and xerces/xerces/2.4.0. I would probably = do this in the parent IRL and manage the dependencies there, but for = this quick test, that's what I did.

And now ERExtensions compiles without error in = eclipse. There are a few other projects that have compile errors and = need some repair for a full Java 17 patch to be attained. Some are = really old and I don't know if anyone even cares about them = anymore.

From: WebObjects & WOnder = Development <webobjects-dev@wocommunity.org> on behalf of Aaron = Rosenzweig <aaron@chatnbike.com>
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2022 = 11:47 AM
To: WebObjects & WOnder = Development <webobjects-dev@wocommunity.org>
Subject: [WO-DEV] Re: duplication in = frameworks: ERExtensions, javaeoaccess
 
Thanks Ramsey but now I=E2=80=99m more = confused. 

Can = we compile for Java 17 compliance or not? Before it sounded like you = said it wasn=E2=80=99t possible but now it sounds like you are saying it = is possible. 

I tried to take one WOnder project, ERExtensions, and make it = compile for java 17 but I couldn=E2=80=99t get it to work in Eclipse. = Files like ERXApplication.java complain: The package org.w3c.dom is = accessible from more than one module: <unnamed>, = java.xml

I=E2=80= =99m not adding a module-info.java or trying to force it in any way to = have extra jigsaw JMPS bells and whistles. If I make it compile for java = 1.8 (like the .project file does in WOnder) then it=E2=80=99s happy. = Change it to java 17 compliance and it fails. 

In our own app, where we = include things like =E2=80=9Ccom.webobjects.eoaccess.EOAttribute=E2=80=9D = I get: The package com.webobjects.eoaccess is accessible from more = than one module: ERExtensions, javaeoaccess

I only tried creating a = module-info.java to see if that could buy us anything but I don=E2=80=99t = think it can. 

I=E2=80=99m looking at your docker project right now. You = mentioned it earlier but I didn=E2=80=99t understand and still don=E2=80=99= t really. I=E2=80=99m not wanting to use docker right now=E2=80=A6 but = maybe your point is that this is a simple WO app using Java 17 that = happens to be in docker. I=E2=80=99m looking around the project in = GitHub that you made and see that it is pretty simple, like a proof of = concept. Thank you. Is it possible that it=E2=80=99s so simple that = there aren=E2=80=99t any conflicts with duplicate package definitions in = different jars? Have you been able to do this with an large/real = project? 

If Java 17 compliance is possible, what am I missing to be = able to do it in Eclipse? 

On Dec = 11, 2022, at 9:14 PM, Ramsey Gurley <Ramsey.Gurley@practicemojo.com> wrote:

Did you have a chance to look at

https://github.com/nullterminated/wodocker


It = uses Java 17, and it works

https://github.com/nullterminated/wodocker/blob/master/pom.xml#= L77

I think the main confusion is thinking we have to = use jigsaw post-java 8, but that's not a requirement. There's no = module-info.java in that project, but it still works like WO always = did.

Wonder can probably be updated similarly, but I see no need to = cut off anyone still using 8 just so one of the three patches received a = year can use a switch expression or something like that :) Maybe when = JEP 182 kicks in and Java 8 can no longer compile with latest JDK, then = there is more reason to update it. That said, I'm also not against = updating to 17 or whatever the latest LTS happens to be if everyone = loves that idea.
From: WebObjects & WOnder = Development <webobjects-dev@wocommunity.org> on behalf of Aaron = Rosenzweig <aaron@chatnbike.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 10, = 2022 10:59 PM
To: WebObjects & WOnder = Development <webobjects-dev@wocommunity.org>
Subject: [WO-DEV] Re: duplication = in frameworks: ERExtensions, javaeoaccess
 
Thanks Ramsey, 

To be clear, your situation is that you = develop and deploy on a Java 17 VM but you compile for Java 8 (1.8). = This affords you a modern VM with any of the latest security and = timestamp updates. It also affords you the use of Apple WebObjects and = WOnder with little effort (besides the ALL-UNNAMED = tweak). 

Did I get that correct (at least roughly?) 

I want to be clear about = it because it=E2=80=99s easy for someone to say or hear =E2=80=9CThey = are on Java 17=E2=80=9D and not fully interpret what it means. I think = all of us, if we are =E2=80=9Con Java 17=E2=80=9D are running in 1.8 = compliance mode. 


On Dec 9, 2022, at 6:28 PM, Ramsey Gurley = <Ramsey.Gurley@practicemojo.com> wrote:

>If we are targeting = Java 17 compliance

I don't really see any need for = WOnder to go java 17 in source. There's not a lot of active development = happening in Wonder, so it would be unnecessary work to do that and = limit backward compatibility with those still using 8. I just care that = it continues to build without errors using the latest java. That's what = origin/master should do now.

As you pointed out, without access to source, it is getting = harder and harder to drag WebObjects into the = future.

From: WebObjects & WOnder = Development <webobjects-dev@wocommunity.org> on behalf of Aaron = Rosenzweig <aaron@chatnbike.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 10, = 2022 6:37 AM
To: WebObjects & WOnder = Development <webobjects-dev@wocommunity.org>
Subject: [WO-DEV] duplication in = frameworks: ERExtensions, javaeoaccess
 
[You don't often get email from aaron@chatnbike.com. = Learn why this is important athttps://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification ]

The package com.webobjects.eoaccess is defined in both: = ERExtensions, javaeoaccess

javaeoaccess is = a framework from NeXT/Apple.

I believe = ERExtensions recreated a distinctly apple package name so that we could = replace Apple's _EOExpressionArray with a new one from Wonder.

This worked because if we load ERExtensions = before JavaEOAccess.framework=E2=80=A6 in the class path, the first one = wins. Old JVMs would happily take the first. While this is risky, it = worked as long as we were careful (and sort of knew what Apple was = doing). We did things like this because we didn=E2=80=99t own = JavaEOAccess and basically =E2=80=9Cpatched it=E2=80=9D because we = wanted an improvement that Apple didn=E2=80=99t provide. We could do = better than Apple and this is how we did it, while letting the rest of = the Apple plumbing continue working with particular object = replacements.

This cannot work past Java = 1.8 can it? If we are targeting Java 17 compliance, we are then using = JPMS (Java Package Module System) aka =E2=80=9CJava Modules=E2=80=9D = which won=E2=80=99t accept this type of patch.

In my application project, I created a module-info.java and = placed these lines in it:

requires = ERExtensions;
requires javaeoaccess;

We need both lines right? But this results in the the = following unsurprising error:
The package = com.webobjects.eoaccess is accessible from more than one module: = ERExtensions, javaeoaccess

What am I = missing? Are we stuck? Without being able to update the Apple jars = directly, the old hacks cannot work in the new word of Java Modules. = We=E2=80=99ve done this in many places including NSArray. Are we stuck = living in Java 1.8 compliance with Java 17?
#############################################################This message is sent to you because you are subscribed = to
  the mailing list <webobjects-dev@wocommunity.org>.
To = unsubscribe, E-mail to: <webobjects-dev-off@wocommunity.org>
To = switch to the DIGEST mode, E-mail to <webobjects-dev-digest@wocommunity.org>
To = switch to the INDEX mode, E-mail to <webobjects-dev-index@wocommunity.org>
Send= administrative queries to  <webobjects-dev-request@wocommunity.org>

Confidentiality = Notice: This email, including = all attachments and replies thereto, are covered by the Electronic = Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. Sections 2510-2521 and are legally = privileged. This information is confidential, and intended only for the = use of the individuals or entities named above. If you are not the = intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, = copying, distribution or the taking of any action in reliance on the = contents of this transmitted information is strictly prohibited. Please = notify us if you have received this transmission in error. Thank = you.

Confidentiality Notice: This email, including all = attachments and replies thereto, are covered by the Electronic = Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. Sections 2510-2521 and are legally = privileged. This information is confidential, and intended only for the = use of the individuals or entities named above. If you are not the = intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, = copying, distribution or the taking of any action in reliance on the = contents of this transmitted information is strictly prohibited. Please = notify us if you have received this transmission in error. Thank = you.

Confidentiality Notice: This email, including all = attachments and replies thereto, are covered by the Electronic = Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. Sections 2510-2521 and are legally = privileged. This information is confidential, and intended only for the = use of the individuals or entities named above. If you are not the = intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, = copying, distribution or the taking of any action in reliance on the = contents of this transmitted information is strictly prohibited. Please = notify us if you have received this transmission in error. Thank = you.

= --Apple-Mail=_1CF054EC-9A0C-4762-9331-A658789FFF87--