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boundary="_000_BYAPR18MB2534C58D821CCA8BF3663CFB86E39BYAPR18MB2534namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: practicemojo.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BYAPR18MB2534.namprd18.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: a749e84b-3399-4698-5a31-08dadcabdc4a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Dec 2022 01:46:31.9412 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: de0a5129-99d3-4d35-a928-09047a134775 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: XuAhF0m3cQpk28NQYkvzaCC7K86vKYTN8axrnLKRbWENHp+Gf4hu/UOClI3v1CXppS65YcYU/CFKGBoG6nM2cUZeBsPZrzNCqMldn4Gc2Z8= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CO6PR18MB4049 --_000_BYAPR18MB2534C58D821CCA8BF3663CFB86E39BYAPR18MB2534namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you have an Eclipse with m2e installed (I think it's preinstalled these = days), maven should mostly "just work." I found https://wiki.wocommunity.org/display/documentation/Maven+Kicking+the+tyres+= without+changing+your+project+structure Very helpful in making maven accommodate the fuzzy bunny layout. I would su= ggest continued use of fuzzy bunny as the WOLips plugin is a little rough a= round the edges when it comes to trying to use a standard maven project lay= out. The pom.xml file in the wodocker project might be instructive too. Specific= ally, the part. If you do that, you don't need to muck aroun= d with ~/.m2/settings.xml at all or even bother to install WebObjects with = the WOInstaller.jar anymore. WOLips can now find all the wojars via maven a= nd you can just ignore the WORoot/System Root/User Root/etc settings in the= wolips plugin preferences altogether. WOLips itself is also easier to develop/contribute now in this regard. No W= O installation is necessary to do that anymore either. I mostly use maven via eclipse, I don't really use the command line unless = there is not another nice way to do something ?? ________________________________ From: WebObjects & WOnder Development on b= ehalf of Aaron Rosenzweig Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2022 9:50 AM To: WebObjects & WOnder Development Subject: [WO-DEV] Re: duplication in frameworks: ERExtensions, javaeoaccess Hi Ramsey and thank you! That=92s some good information. Thanks for taking = the time to try that. You make it sound easy but I was coming up empty :-) So basically you said =93forget JavaXML=94 framework and completely avoided= it. Then you deleted some source files that dealt with Axis which came fro= m JavaXML because=85 well=85 it was a neat concept back in the day but we a= ren=92t really using it. I assume you added the javax.servlet and xerces be= cause they were needed and used to be accessed from JavaXML. Ok=85 I get th= e idea. Creative :-) Not really that straightforward but makes sense after = you figured it out and shared with us. I think maybe I should move our build to Maven and start there first and th= en maybe modernize our apps as best as I can while getting rid of certain d= ependencies like JavaXML.framework like you had done. In other words=85 I s= hould probably do Maven first and then Java 17 second. I=92ll maybe compile= the WOnder files in java 1.8 compliance mode (at least for now). Is this the best primer on getting Maven working in Eclipse? https://wiki.wocommunity.org/display/WOL/Quick+Start It's got a note from Ray Kiddy on 2022 06-24 that at least part of it doesn= =92t work. It also talks about three ways=85 mvn eclipse:eclipse, m2eclipse, and q4e= =85. which of the three is best? perhaps m2eclipse? Thank you, =97 Aaron On Dec 11, 2022, at 11:19 PM, Ramsey Gurley > wrote: I'm not totally sure, because I haven't tried to migrate wonder to 17 yet, = but I think it's possible. With regards to compiling ERExtensions with Java= 17, I did that, saw your error, and corrected it on ERExtensions: I updated the /pom.xml file to source/target 17 instead of 1.8. I added an exclusion to JavaWebObjects in the same file, excluding com.webo= bjects/JavaXML. I deleted the WOWebServicePatch.java, because I don't want to drag in Apach= e Axis with all its vulns for something nobody uses anyway. I removed the r= eference to it in ERXApplication. In ERExtensions/pom.xml, I added dependencies for javax.servlet/servlet-api= /2.5 and xerces/xerces/2.4.0. I would probably do this in the parent IRL an= d manage the dependencies there, but for this quick test, that's what I did= . And now ERExtensions compiles without error in eclipse. There are a few oth= er projects that have compile errors and need some repair for a full Java 1= 7 patch to be attained. Some are really old and I don't know if anyone even= cares about them anymore. ________________________________ From: WebObjects & WOnder Development > on behalf of Aaron Rosenzweig > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2022 11:47 AM To: WebObjects & WOnder Development > Subject: [WO-DEV] Re: duplication in frameworks: ERExtensions, javaeoaccess Thanks Ramsey but now I=92m more confused. Can we compile for Java 17 compliance or not? Before it sounded like you sa= id it wasn=92t possible but now it sounds like you are saying it is possibl= e. I tried to take one WOnder project, ERExtensions, and make it compile for j= ava 17 but I couldn=92t get it to work in Eclipse. Files like ERXApplicatio= n.java complain: The package org.w3c.dom is accessible from more than one m= odule: , java.xml I=92m not adding a module-info.java or trying to force it in any way to hav= e extra jigsaw JMPS bells and whistles. If I make it compile for java 1.8 (= like the .project file does in WOnder) then it=92s happy. Change it to java= 17 compliance and it fails. In our own app, where we include things like =93com.webobjects.eoaccess.EOA= ttribute=94 I get: The package com.webobjects.eoaccess is accessible from m= ore than one module: ERExtensions, javaeoaccess I only tried creating a module-info.java to see if that could buy us anythi= ng but I don=92t think it can. I=92m looking at your docker project right now. You mentioned it earlier bu= t I didn=92t understand and still don=92t really. I=92m not wanting to use = docker right now=85 but maybe your point is that this is a simple WO app us= ing Java 17 that happens to be in docker. I=92m looking around the project = in GitHub that you made and see that it is pretty simple, like a proof of c= oncept. Thank you. Is it possible that it=92s so simple that there aren=92t= any conflicts with duplicate package definitions in different jars? Have y= ou been able to do this with an large/real project? If Java 17 compliance is possible, what am I missing to be able to do it in= Eclipse? On Dec 11, 2022, at 9:14 PM, Ramsey Gurley > wrote: Did you have a chance to look at https://github.com/nullterminated/wodocker It uses Java 17, and it works https://github.com/nullterminated/wodocker/blob/master/pom.xml#L77 I think the main confusion is thinking we have to use jigsaw post-java 8, b= ut that's not a requirement. There's no module-info.java in that project, b= ut it still works like WO always did. Wonder can probably be updated similarly, but I see no need to cut off anyo= ne still using 8 just so one of the three patches received a year can use a= switch expression or something like that :) Maybe when JEP 182 kicks in an= d Java 8 can no longer compile with latest JDK, then there is more reason t= o update it. That said, I'm also not against updating to 17 or whatever the= latest LTS happens to be if everyone loves that idea. ________________________________ From: WebObjects & WOnder Development > on behalf of Aaron Rosenzweig > Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2022 10:59 PM To: WebObjects & WOnder Development > Subject: [WO-DEV] Re: duplication in frameworks: ERExtensions, javaeoaccess Thanks Ramsey, To be clear, your situation is that you develop and deploy on a Java 17 VM = but you compile for Java 8 (1.8). This affords you a modern VM with any of = the latest security and timestamp updates. It also affords you the use of A= pple WebObjects and WOnder with little effort (besides the ALL-UNNAMED twea= k). Did I get that correct (at least roughly?) I want to be clear about it because it=92s easy for someone to say or hear = =93They are on Java 17=94 and not fully interpret what it means. I think al= l of us, if we are =93on Java 17=94 are running in 1.8 compliance mode. On Dec 9, 2022, at 6:28 PM, Ramsey Gurley > wrote: >If we are targeting Java 17 compliance I don't really see any need for WOnder to go java 17 in source. There's not= a lot of active development happening in Wonder, so it would be unnecessar= y work to do that and limit backward compatibility with those still using 8= . I just care that it continues to build without errors using the latest ja= va. That's what origin/master should do now. As you pointed out, without access to source, it is getting harder and hard= er to drag WebObjects into the future. ________________________________ From: WebObjects & WOnder Development > on behalf of Aaron Rosenzweig > Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2022 6:37 AM To: WebObjects & WOnder Development > Subject: [WO-DEV] duplication in frameworks: ERExtensions, javaeoaccess [You don't often get email from aaron@chatnbike.com. Learn why this is important athttps://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentifi= cation ] The package com.webobjects.eoaccess is defined in both: ERExtensions, javae= oaccess javaeoaccess is a framework from NeXT/Apple. I believe ERExtensions recreated a distinctly apple package name so that we= could replace Apple's _EOExpressionArray with a new one from Wonder. This worked because if we load ERExtensions before JavaEOAccess.framework= =85 in the class path, the first one wins. Old JVMs would happily take the = first. While this is risky, it worked as long as we were careful (and sort = of knew what Apple was doing). We did things like this because we didn=92t = own JavaEOAccess and basically =93patched it=94 because we wanted an improv= ement that Apple didn=92t provide. We could do better than Apple and this i= s how we did it, while letting the rest of the Apple plumbing continue work= ing with particular object replacements. This cannot work past Java 1.8 can it? If we are targeting Java 17 complian= ce, we are then using JPMS (Java Package Module System) aka =93Java Modules= =94 which won=92t accept this type of patch. In my application project, I created a module-info.java and placed these li= nes in it: requires ERExtensions; requires javaeoaccess; We need both lines right? But this results in the the following unsurprisin= g error: The package com.webobjects.eoaccess is accessible from more than one module= : ERExtensions, javaeoaccess What am I missing? Are we stuck? Without being able to update the Apple jar= s directly, the old hacks cannot work in the new word of Java Modules. We= =92ve done this in many places including NSArray. Are we stuck living in Ja= va 1.8 compliance with Java 17? ############################################################# This message is sent to you because you are subscribed to the mailing list >. To unsubscribe, E-mail to: > To switch to the DIGEST mode, E-mail to > To switch to the INDEX mode, E-mail to > Send administrative queries to > ________________________________ Confidentiality Notice: This email, including all attachments and replies t= hereto, are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C.= Sections 2510-2521 and are legally privileged. This information is confide= ntial, and intended only for the use of the individuals or entities named a= bove. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that a= ny disclosure, copying, distribution or the taking of any action in relianc= e on the contents of this transmitted information is strictly prohibited. P= lease notify us if you have received this transmission in error. 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This information is confide= ntial, and intended only for the use of the individuals or entities named a= bove. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that a= ny disclosure, copying, distribution or the taking of any action in relianc= e on the contents of this transmitted information is strictly prohibited. P= lease notify us if you have received this transmission in error. Thank you. ________________________________ Confidentiality Notice: This email, including all attachments and replies t= hereto, are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C.= Sections 2510-2521 and are legally privileged. This information is confide= ntial, and intended only for the use of the individuals or entities named a= bove. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that a= ny disclosure, copying, distribution or the taking of any action in relianc= e on the contents of this transmitted information is strictly prohibited. P= lease notify us if you have received this transmission in error. Thank you. --_000_BYAPR18MB2534C58D821CCA8BF3663CFB86E39BYAPR18MB2534namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If you have an Eclipse wit= h m2e installed (I think it's preinstalled these days), maven should mostly "just work." I found

https://wiki.wo= community.org/display/documentation/Maven+Kicking+the+tyres+without+changin= g+your+project+structure

Very helpful in making maven accommodate the fuzzy bunny layout. I would su= ggest continued use of fuzzy bunny as the WOLips plugin is a little rough a= round the edges when it comes to trying to use a standard maven project lay= out. 

The pom.xml file in the wodocker project might be instructive too. Specific= ally, the <repositories> part. If you do that, you don't need to muck= around with ~/.m2/settings.xml at all or even bother to install WebObjects= with the WOInstaller.jar anymore. WOLips can now find all the wojars via maven and you can just ignore the WORoot/S= ystem Root/User Root/etc settings in the wolips plugin preferences altogeth= er.

WOLips itself is also easier to develop/contribute now in this regard. No W= O installation is necessary to do that anymore either.

I mostly use maven via eclipse, I don't really use the command line unless = there is not another nice way to do something ��  


From: WebObjects & WOnd= er Development <webobjects-dev@wocommunity.org> on behalf of Aaron Ro= senzweig <aaron@chatnbike.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2022 9:50 AM
To: WebObjects & WOnder Development <webobjects-dev@wocommuni= ty.org>
Subject: [WO-DEV] Re: duplication in frameworks: ERExtensions, javae= oaccess
 

So basically you said =93forget JavaXML=94 framework and co= mpletely avoided it. Then you deleted some source files that dealt with Axi= s which came from JavaXML because=85 well=85 it was a neat concept back in = the day but we aren=92t really using it. I assume you added the javax.servlet and xerces because they were needed and used t= o be accessed from JavaXML. Ok=85 I get the idea. Creative :-) Not really t= hat straightforward but makes sense after you figured it out and shared wit= h us. 

I think maybe I should move our build to Maven and start th= ere first and then maybe modernize our apps as best as I can while getting = rid of certain dependencies like JavaXML.framework like you had done. In ot= her words=85 I should probably do Maven first and then Java 17 second. I=92ll maybe compile the WOnder files in ja= va 1.8 compliance mode (at least for now). 

Is this the best primer on getting Maven working in Eclipse= ?
https://wiki.wocommunity.org/display/WOL/Quick+Start

It's got a note from Ray Kiddy on 2022 06-24 that at least = part of it doesn=92t work. 

It also talks about three ways=85 mvn eclipse:eclipse, m2ec= lipse, and q4e=85. which of the three is best? perhaps m2eclipse? 

Thank you,
=97 Aaron

On Dec 11, 2022, at 11:19 PM, Ramsey Gurley <Ramsey.Gurley@practicemoj= o.com> wrote:

I'm not totally sure, bec= ause I haven't tried to migrate wonder to 17 yet, but I think it's possible= . With regards to compiling ERExtensions with Java 17, I did that, saw your error, and corrected it on ERExtensions= : 

I updated the /pom.xml file to source/target 17 instead of 1.8.

I added an exclusion to JavaWebObjects in the same file, excluding com.webob= jects/JavaXML.

I deleted the WOWebServic= ePatch.java, because I don't want to drag in Apache Axis with all its vulns= for something nobody uses anyway. I removed the reference to it in ERXApplication.

In ERExtensions/pom.xml, = I added dependencies for javax.servlet/servlet-api/2.5 and xerces/xerces/2.= 4.0. I would probably do this in the parent IRL and manage the dependencies there, but for this quick test, tha= t's what I did.

And now ERExtensions comp= iles without error in eclipse. There are a few other projects that have com= pile errors and need some repair for a full Java 17 patch to be attained. Some are really old and I don't know = if anyone even cares about them anymore.

From: Web= Objects & WOnder Development <webobjects-dev@wocommunity.org> on behalf of Aaron Rosenzweig <aaron@chatnbike.com>
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2022 11:47 AM
To: W= ebObjects & WOnder Development <webobjects-dev@wocommunity.org>
Subject: [WO-DEV] Re: duplication in frameworks: ERExtensions, javaeoaccess
 
Thanks Ramsey but now I=92m more confused. 

Can we compile for Java 17 compliance or not? Before it sou= nded like you said it wasn=92t possible but now it sounds like you are sayi= ng it is possible. 

I tried to take one WOnder project, ERExtensions, and make = it compile for java 17 but I couldn=92t get it to work in Eclipse. Files li= ke ERXApplication.java complain: The package org.w3c.dom is accessible= from more than one module: <unnamed>, java.xml

I=92m not adding a module-info.java or trying to force it i= n any way to have extra jigsaw JMPS bells and whistles. If I make it compil= e for java 1.8 (like the .project file does in WOnder) then it=92s happy. C= hange it to java 17 compliance and it fails. 

In our own app, where we include things like =93com.webobje= cts.eoaccess.EOAttribute=94 I get: The package com.webobjects.eoaccess= is accessible from more than one module: ERExtensions, javaeoaccess

I only tried creating a module-info.java to see if that cou= ld buy us anything but I don=92t think it can. 

I=92m looking at your docker project right now. You mention= ed it earlier but I didn=92t understand and still don=92t really. I=92m not= wanting to use docker right now=85 but maybe your point is that this is a = simple WO app using Java 17 that happens to be in docker. I=92m looking around the project in GitHub that you made and= see that it is pretty simple, like a proof of concept. Thank you. Is it po= ssible that it=92s so simple that there aren=92t any conflicts with duplica= te package definitions in different jars? Have you been able to do this with an large/real project? 

If Java 17 compliance is possible, what am I missing to be = able to do it in Eclipse? 

On Dec 11, 2022, at 9:14 PM, Ramsey Gurley <Ramsey.Gurley@practicemojo= .com> wrote:

Did you have a chance to = look at

https://github.com/nullterminated/wodocker


It uses Java 17, and it works

https://github.com/nullterminated/wodocker/blob/master/pom.= xml#L77

I think the main confusion is thinking we have to use jigsaw post-java 8, b= ut that's not a requirement. There's no module-info.java in that project, b= ut it still works like WO always did.

Wonder can probably be updated similarly, but I see no need to cut off anyo= ne still using 8 just so one of the three patches received a year can use a= switch expression or something like that :) Maybe when JEP 182 kicks in an= d Java 8 can no longer compile with latest JDK, then there is more reason to update it. That said, I'm also no= t against updating to 17 or whatever the latest LTS happens to be if everyo= ne loves that idea.
From: W= ebObjects & WOnder Development <webobjects-dev@wocommunity.org> on behalf of Aaron Rosenzweig <aaron@chatnbike.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2022 10:59 PM
To: WebObjects & WOnder Development <webobjects-dev@wocommunity.org>
Subject: <= /span>[WO-DEV] Re: duplication in frameworks: ERExtensions, javaeoaccess
 
Thanks Ramsey, 

To be clear, your situation is that you develop and deploy = on a Java 17 VM but you compile for Java 8 (1.8). This affords you a modern= VM with any of the latest security and timestamp updates. It also affords = you the use of Apple WebObjects and WOnder with little effort (besides the ALL-UNNAMED tweak). 

Did I get that correct (at least roughly?) 

I want to be clear about it because it=92s easy for someone= to say or hear =93They are on Java 17=94 and not fully interpret what it m= eans. I think all of us, if we are =93on Java 17=94 are running in 1.8 comp= liance mode. 


On Dec 9, 2022, at 6:28 PM, Ramsey Gurley <Ramsey.Gurley@practicemojo.= com> wrote:

>If we are targeting Java 17 compliance

I don't really see any need for WOnder to go java 17 in source. There's not = a lot of active development happening in Wonder, so it would be unnecessary= work to do that and limit backward compatibility with those still using 8.= I just care that it continues to build without errors using the latest java. That's what origin/master shou= ld do now.

As you pointed out, without access to source, it is getting harder and harder= to drag WebObjects into the future.

From: WebObjects & WOnder Development <webobjects-dev@wocommunity.org> on behalf of Aaron Rosenzweig <aaron@chatnbike.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2022 6:37 AM
To: WebObjects & WOnder Development <webobjects-dev@wocommunity.org>
Subject: = ;[WO-DEV] duplication in frameworks: ERExtensions, javaeoaccess
 
[You don't often get email from aaron@chatnbike.com. Learn why this is important a= thttps= ://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification ]

The package com.webobjects.eoaccess is defined in both: ERExtensions, javae= oaccess

javaeoaccess is a framework from NeXT/Apple.

I believe ERExtensions recreated a distinctly apple package name so that we= could replace Apple's _EOExpressionArray with a new one from Wonder.

This worked because if we load ERExtensions before JavaEOAccess.framework= =85 in the class path, the first one wins. Old JVMs would happily take the = first. While this is risky, it worked as long as we were careful (and sort = of knew what Apple was doing). We did things like this because we didn=92t own JavaEOAccess and basically =93pat= ched it=94 because we wanted an improvement that Apple didn=92t provide. We= could do better than Apple and this is how we did it, while letting the re= st of the Apple plumbing continue working with particular object replacements.

This cannot work past Java 1.8 can it? If we are targeting Java 17 complian= ce, we are then using JPMS (Java Package Module System) aka =93Java Modules= =94 which won=92t accept this type of patch.

In my application project, I created a module-info.java and placed these li= nes in it:

requires ERExtensions;
requires javaeoaccess;

We need both lines right? But this results in the the following unsurprisin= g error:
The package com.webobjects.eoaccess is accessible from more than one module= : ERExtensions, javaeoaccess

What am I missing? Are we stuck? Without being able to update the Apple jar= s directly, the old hacks cannot work in the new word of Java Modules. We= =92ve done this in many places including NSArray. Are we stuck living in Ja= va 1.8 compliance with Java 17?
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